I am half way through this book and it is enlightening and scary at the same time. Naomi Wolf is a liberal and not all of you will agree w/ her premise, but it is worth considering (and discussing). It is: There are 10 characteristics that are present in a dictatorship and all 10 are already present in the good ol' USA. If you go to the book site (scroll down for reviews, etc.) you can see what they are from the chapter headings. When I am done maybe I'll do a longer synopsis of the book.
As always, I am not necessarily recommending buying the book, or buying thru Amazon, as most of these books are in the library if you don't want to buy them. If you do buy it, read it and pass it on.
Sunday, December 16, 2007
Tuesday, December 11, 2007
Wow
Yall have been busy. Yes oh dear California family I will start to get more involved with the Blog, but dang, there are some serious letters on here. In time, Always,
~Jon
~Jon
Saturday, December 8, 2007
Presidential Candidates
Hey everybody,
Here is a link to a site that I found to be pretty interesting. It has videos of some of the presidential candidates' views on Darfur, something that I think is very important. I was most impressed with Senator Obama and Senator Edwards. What do you think?
http://savedarfur.org/page/content/voteredu
Here is a link to a site that I found to be pretty interesting. It has videos of some of the presidential candidates' views on Darfur, something that I think is very important. I was most impressed with Senator Obama and Senator Edwards. What do you think?
http://savedarfur.org/page/content/voteredu
Sunday, December 2, 2007
Iraq War: Room for Hope?
This Sun. had a few articles re the Iraq war that were trying to see the light at the end of the tunnel. The media does pay some attention to "success", Terry, when there is some.
The Surge is working on some level but there is always dissent on how well and how much more it will take and how much longer we need to be there.
It may even be possible to start thinking of being able to leave?
Unfortunately, the candidates seem to be rather quiet and non-committal on solutions for Iraq.
These are rather long articles but worth reading if you are keeping up on the war at all. We seem to be still in the period of asking questions more than having the solutions. It is very complex and I'm sure none of us will agree totally w/ any of the articles, but it is encouraging to think that some day the place will be stable and we will be out of there.
Michael
The Surge is working on some level but there is always dissent on how well and how much more it will take and how much longer we need to be there.
It may even be possible to start thinking of being able to leave?
Unfortunately, the candidates seem to be rather quiet and non-committal on solutions for Iraq.
These are rather long articles but worth reading if you are keeping up on the war at all. We seem to be still in the period of asking questions more than having the solutions. It is very complex and I'm sure none of us will agree totally w/ any of the articles, but it is encouraging to think that some day the place will be stable and we will be out of there.
Michael
re Twinone and SF Kid Emails
(This was reposted from an email and comment so it is more accessible)
Hi everyone;
I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one who can get a little long winded on here. I had created another long research letter in response to the post concerning "Bible inconsistency", but I clicked the wrong button at the wrong time, and it vaporized. I don't plan to re-write it at this point (everyone can now breathe a sigh of relief) because Mary has covered most of the points very well. I completely agree with her, her understanding of a relationship with a true and living God, and her belief that there are no "inconsistencies" in the Bible...only misunderstandings by the readers, and in some cases, a distortion of what it says with a purpose of trying to tear it down.
One thing that I had tried to point out in my now "lost in cyberspace" post is this...before you take a stance on a particular issue, you really should get all of the facts, and do at least some research with an open mind. This would be true of religions as well as in politics.
Here's an example: One of the "questions" that was raised in Michael's post was an alleged conflict between Gen 1 & Gen 2 regarding the creation. The original article author read these passages and decided that one (Gen 1) listed earth first, and then man was created. Then he points out that in Gen 2 it is the other way around, therefore - Conflict - therefore, it can't be true. Obviously, he didn't do enough research to study what was actually being said, and what the context was trying to point out before he came to his conclusion.
Michael had a link to this article, and there were other links as well. If the other links and articles had been read, it would be very clear why there appears to be conflict in the two chapters, when there really is none. These other links were either not read, or, the author already had his mind made up, and he wasn't about to get confused by the facts.
Politically, I see a lot of the same thing happening. Example: The troop surge in Iraq. We are to believe (as told by the media, the congress, move on, and the "left" side of politics, etc.) that Iraq is a failed policy, we are losing, and the troop surge is foolish and won't work. Despite that fact that there are (and have been) countless good things happening over there, they remain steadfast in this belief, and would not even consider that this might be the right thing to be doing, and that it could work. Well...(shock & amazement!) even some of the democratic leadership in Washington are starting to have to admit that it IS working, and even with all of their efforts to try to make it fail (because that is what they wanted to have happen to try to disgrace this administration), it's not going to. The facts are getting too obvious now to be able to ignore them or cover them up.
I too lost my faith during my college years. I also questioned the Bible, the church, our years with Dad & Mom at home, etc. I've had the opportunity to see life from many different angles (some very dark - some "fun" - some apathetically - some optimistically - etc.). At family gatherings, we all laugh about me being the "black sheep" of the family, but it's funny now because it's true. I've been there, done that, and came back! Those of you who know me, know that I am not easily convinced to do anything until I decide that I want to do it, and it's good for me. My faith (and my choice to become a Christian - as Mary has described it) was certainly no exception to this process that I tend to follow before taking a firm stance on anything - I checked it out pretty good!
Politically speaking, I'm the same way. 30 years ago I was a "rootin tootin" democrat after my fathers' heart. I don't believe that I have changed that much. I didn't leave the democratic party and the philosophy of old, but they left me! Kennedy was my kind of guy (politically, not morally), but he would have to be a republican today.
So what's my point? I HAVE listened to both sides, and I have made (what I believe to be an educated choice) a decision to reject the socialist policies, immoral practices, anti-God teachings, and self destructive attitudes of the current democratic party. Do the republicans have it all correct? Of course not, but they are talking about possible solutions to our country's problems that are a lot more in line with what I believe than the dems. Where is the next Regan when you need him? Ironically, I didn't vote for him the first time.
"Let's discuss politics & religion" - I guess I got them both into this thread. Most families would cringe at the thought of doing this, but I think it is refreshing, and would agree that we might as well "get it out there".
Thanks to both of you for some thought inspiring posts. I hope that those who are out there reading these posts will throw their "two cents" in as well.
I'm not going to chance another "poof" by doing a spell check - deal with the typos - this is going directly to publishing.
Love to ALL -
Hi everyone;
I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one who can get a little long winded on here. I had created another long research letter in response to the post concerning "Bible inconsistency", but I clicked the wrong button at the wrong time, and it vaporized. I don't plan to re-write it at this point (everyone can now breathe a sigh of relief) because Mary has covered most of the points very well. I completely agree with her, her understanding of a relationship with a true and living God, and her belief that there are no "inconsistencies" in the Bible...only misunderstandings by the readers, and in some cases, a distortion of what it says with a purpose of trying to tear it down.
One thing that I had tried to point out in my now "lost in cyberspace" post is this...before you take a stance on a particular issue, you really should get all of the facts, and do at least some research with an open mind. This would be true of religions as well as in politics.
Here's an example: One of the "questions" that was raised in Michael's post was an alleged conflict between Gen 1 & Gen 2 regarding the creation. The original article author read these passages and decided that one (Gen 1) listed earth first, and then man was created. Then he points out that in Gen 2 it is the other way around, therefore - Conflict - therefore, it can't be true. Obviously, he didn't do enough research to study what was actually being said, and what the context was trying to point out before he came to his conclusion.
Michael had a link to this article, and there were other links as well. If the other links and articles had been read, it would be very clear why there appears to be conflict in the two chapters, when there really is none. These other links were either not read, or, the author already had his mind made up, and he wasn't about to get confused by the facts.
Politically, I see a lot of the same thing happening. Example: The troop surge in Iraq. We are to believe (as told by the media, the congress, move on, and the "left" side of politics, etc.) that Iraq is a failed policy, we are losing, and the troop surge is foolish and won't work. Despite that fact that there are (and have been) countless good things happening over there, they remain steadfast in this belief, and would not even consider that this might be the right thing to be doing, and that it could work. Well...(shock & amazement!) even some of the democratic leadership in Washington are starting to have to admit that it IS working, and even with all of their efforts to try to make it fail (because that is what they wanted to have happen to try to disgrace this administration), it's not going to. The facts are getting too obvious now to be able to ignore them or cover them up.
I too lost my faith during my college years. I also questioned the Bible, the church, our years with Dad & Mom at home, etc. I've had the opportunity to see life from many different angles (some very dark - some "fun" - some apathetically - some optimistically - etc.). At family gatherings, we all laugh about me being the "black sheep" of the family, but it's funny now because it's true. I've been there, done that, and came back! Those of you who know me, know that I am not easily convinced to do anything until I decide that I want to do it, and it's good for me. My faith (and my choice to become a Christian - as Mary has described it) was certainly no exception to this process that I tend to follow before taking a firm stance on anything - I checked it out pretty good!
Politically speaking, I'm the same way. 30 years ago I was a "rootin tootin" democrat after my fathers' heart. I don't believe that I have changed that much. I didn't leave the democratic party and the philosophy of old, but they left me! Kennedy was my kind of guy (politically, not morally), but he would have to be a republican today.
So what's my point? I HAVE listened to both sides, and I have made (what I believe to be an educated choice) a decision to reject the socialist policies, immoral practices, anti-God teachings, and self destructive attitudes of the current democratic party. Do the republicans have it all correct? Of course not, but they are talking about possible solutions to our country's problems that are a lot more in line with what I believe than the dems. Where is the next Regan when you need him? Ironically, I didn't vote for him the first time.
"Let's discuss politics & religion" - I guess I got them both into this thread. Most families would cringe at the thought of doing this, but I think it is refreshing, and would agree that we might as well "get it out there".
Thanks to both of you for some thought inspiring posts. I hope that those who are out there reading these posts will throw their "two cents" in as well.
I'm not going to chance another "poof" by doing a spell check - deal with the typos - this is going directly to publishing.
Love to ALL -
Saturday, December 1, 2007
Mary & Michael Emails
Mary and I had a few emails back and forth and she had a very loving way of explaining her beliefs and encouraging me to explore an individual relationship with God as opposed to through any particular religion. Hopefully you will find both our statements informative (sorry, it got kinda long).
Mary said:
Well, we have had a VERY busy time here the last week or so, but all the kids are back in Madison and Chicago and the dishes and tables are again put away after feeding 26 for the thanksgiving feast. Joe lead the charge in the kitchen assisted by Nick, Bill, George and brother Tom. They had a great time, calling for the "scullery maids" to clean up the dishes multiple times through out their preparations. The food was wonderful and they will have to decide what recipes to keep for next year and which ones to change. Joe LOVES to head up the big adventure. You will have to join sometime with the "boy" chef time!!
Anyway... I really would like to respond to your comment about the possibility of being more than one way to heaven. Scripture teaches that there is only one way to heaven and that is through belief in the Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus says in the gospel that He is The Way and no one will come to the Father except through Him. I am created by God, for God and belief in any other gospel will get me into the group of people turned away on judgement day because I do not know God. My name will not be written in the Lambs Book of Life (Jesus book of the names of believers). Jesus is the Lamb of God ( the perfect sacrifice for the forgiveness of sin) Scripture never says he is one of the Lambs. Other belief systems may relieve sickness etc for a while, but they will never satisfy my need for a savior of my sin. I tried "religion" through my following the rules etc of Catholicism and came up empty when I needed a reason to live. I had 2 little children at the time and a husband ..... All the things the world said should satisfy, but was very much struggling with a reason to live. No religion will ever satisfy ... only a relationship with the creator of it all. I finally found my reason for living.... it was giving my whole heart to Him. To empty myself of rules and righteousness, and ask Jesus to live in my heart and serve Him alone. In all that I do, every word I speak, I do it all for my Lord Jesus Christ. It is not about me and what I know etc, it is about what He has done for me in paying for my sins. All other systems are about me and what I have done. They are all systems of legalism and rules. Only Christianity is about serving a risen savior. The others have dead leaders. Jesus Christ is seated at the right hand of God waiting for his "church" (the believers) to sit with him in heaven at the second coming. Jesus is the fulfillment of the prophecies of the old testament. He brings a new commandment.... being the Lamb of God. I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. He directs my life through His Word, teaching me to rely more and more on Him. I am not a robot, but am in a relationship with Him. I made this transition when I committed my life to Him Dec 4, 1984. As I prayed that day I no longer was searching for a reason to live, and had a desire to read the bible. I understood what the words said for the first time ever. Before that day I had all your same concerns and issues with God and the bible.... but no more. Scripture teaches about the road to eternal life being narrow because Jesus is the only Way. Many will say "but I cast out demons etc" but all the good works will never replace the need to have a relationship with Jesus. Heritage, religion, good works, race, status, any man made system will always come short of the ability to qualify me for eternal life. God created me to give Glory to Him only. Serving any other master (self, children, job, idle,....) will get me sent away on judgment day. I am a flawed human for sure, but forgiven through faith in Jesus payment through the work done on Calvary. I have never gone back to suicide, because I now have a purpose to live. My kids weren't even enough to keep me living. The biggest reason I never took my life is I was worried about who would care for Eliz and Nick. Joe was working long hours (still does) and I did not want to send them to daycare for 50 hours or more each week. But I still struggled with how to put me out of my pain and suffering..... until I realized I was missing the most important thing in my life. I was trying to work out my own life through religion, and came up very depressed. It was without purpose.... Then I found Jesus!! He continues to change me from the inside out. I did not add him to any other system but let Him be my only way. He died for me, cares for me, forgives my sins, teaches me, corrects me, and loves me (warts and all!!) After over 20 years of serving Him, I only see more clearly the consistency in scripture. I am confident I am not wrong... and have nothing to lose if I am wrong. I no longer consider suicide, and have a song in my heart and smile on my face.
For today.... I must run. I know Mom worries about us talking about faith, and it interfering with our relationship, but I believe in unconditional love and trust you do too. If I got to heaven and God lets me in (which is what I believe will happen) and I am correct with my belief of through Christ alone I get to enter heaven.... I will never be able to forgive myself that I did not share the truth about The Way because I did not think you would want to hear me. No matter what you choose to do with your faith, I will always love you as my big brother. And because you are my brother, I will continue to pray that you choose to follow Jesus Christ as your personal savior.
May God richly bless you as you consider my beliefs and thoughts!!
Love, Mary
Michael replied:
Hi, Mary.
Sorry to be slow, but biz gets in the way at times.
First I want to thank you for your loving way that you explain your beliefs and how they have saved you from self inflicted harm. I am glad it works for you. I don't mind discussing these issues or being encouraged to read the bible, etc., as long as it is not in such a dogmatic way it just turns people off. I think you expressed your views wonderfully and I know that you (and others) feel the need, obligation even, to try to spread your beliefs to others since your beliefs have helped you, and your faith directs you to help others, also.
I have off and on over the years investigated the bible and I just don't agree w/ you re its consistency (not that I am the greatest bible scholar of all time....but I do read). I basically started my doubting way back in high school and had pretty much become non-religious by college. I felt guilty about it for a while, and sometimes over the years felt I "should" try to get some sort of spirituality going again, but even investigations of other religions or philosophies have not caused me to feel enlightened or that I need to join up.
OTOH, I do not get depressed, do not feel the need to search for God, guardian angels, etc., and am generally quite happy and fulfilled. I find purpose in life all over the place, in loving family, in helping others, enjoying nature, being w/ friends, and satisfying work. I have had feelings of some sort of spiritual connection when praying (years ago) or meditating (should do it more) but can feel just as "at one" in nature, w/ Phyllis (and certain good friends), during a good workout, and when all is going well w/ a business deal.
I believe in science, logic, reason, but acknowledge we cannot understand everything (yet) that way. But we learn more every day. Once in the past the sun was a god because people didn't understand how it worked. Now we do. There were gods for rain and volcanoes but now we see those are just part of nature. Once we thought the sun and moon revolved around us while we lived on a flat surface, now we know we are a small part of a large universe and are not at the center of it.
There are healings, mental connections (ESP?), communication (maybe) w/ people who have died, entangled subatomic particles that appear in two places at once, and lots of other things that we don't understand yet, but probably will some day. I don't have to see it to believe it, but it does have to be based in reason, repeatable experiments, multiple observations, and verified by other scientists.
I know science will never have all the answers because each new answer generates more questions. Ethics of technology will be discussed and fought over as new technologies were in the past. When Drs. started doing dissections 500 yrs. ago to see how the body worked people thought that was a sin (and a crime). 100 yrs. ago blood transfusions were "playing god", but now they are an accepted part of modern medicine. Transplanting organs was denounced (still is by some) even though it saved lives. Now we are on the threshold of being able to control genetics, inheritability, avoid disease starting in the first place, and many are denouncing that as unethical, against God's law, etc.
Maybe there is an afterlife: Maybe our energy (soul) does survive in some form, but maybe it is just a physical fact, a law of nature that some day we will understand just like we understand why the sun rises in the east. That is why I am not concerned. Either there is no after life and when we die that's it. Or there is and when we die we go there. Or even reincarnate to a bodily life again as some believe (and there is as much anecdotal evidence of that as there is for "miracles"). If so, we'll all be in heaven-after life together. That's just the way it works. I see no evidence (outside of holy books) that one must believe a certain way or follow a certain behavior to have an after life if one exists. I see many religions, books, and leaders that say they are the one and only path. They can't all be right. And I don't see the bible as being any more "right" than the others. Most seem to contain some good advice mixed w/ some history but also w/ plenty of mistakes, historical fiction, bad science, and antiquated rules.
But like you, Mary, I love you and all the family. We may have widely differing opinions and beliefs on religion - which leads to different beliefs re politics, but so long as we care for each other we will be tight in this world and the next if there is one. I'd much rather be open about these differences than slink around trying to avoid conflict.
So, much love to you, and see you in a few days!!!
Michael.
Mary refining things a bit for Michael
Hi Michael
It is fine with me to put all our conversations on the blog. I am soooo computer illiterate I would not even know how!! Ali has always done things for me on the computer, and now she up and got married and moved out.... the nerve of that girl (haha)!!
Just one more comment before signing off.... The word "Christianity" today is quite often misused. It is often used to describe anyone who is not Jewish. I do not believe I am religious because I am a Christian. Religions are all created by people and full of flaws because of this. Belief in Jesus Christ as my personal savior makes me a Christian. I do not belong to any religion, but to Christ. I am therefore a Christ-ian. I am clarifying this because I do not want to be identified with any one religion. I don’t really like "religion" because it identifies me with an incomplete system of legalism and rules that depend on me doing something to prove I am good enough. Belonging to Christ totally changes my identity. I am now relying on what He did for me, not what I might do for him. I need to do nothing because it was already done for me. I used to trust religion and it only fed into my depression. I do choose to worship with a body of believers, but the church title does not matter. I worship with others who believe in the gospel of Jesus Christ. When you talk about religion being inconsistent etc I totally agree with you. I am not at all about religion, but rather having a relationship with Christ. Hopefully this makes sense. Let me know if it came out clear as mud!!! (This is foundational to how I see my faith not being one of religion)
Anyway... Go ahead and put our conversations on the blog. Its "date night" so I must be off to get cleaned up. Joe and I are looking forward to seeing you next week. I will check with mom and her calendar but we are thinking maybe Fri. for dinner....
Love, Mary
Michael’s final comment.
Dear Mary,
Yes, I understand that you are not tied to any brand of religion or name on the door of the church, and I agree that is a good thing. Cut out the middle man and go direct to your source then surround yourself with people you like who have similar beliefs (or at least who don’t challenge your beliefs) so you can have the human community we all seem to need.
And a PS to Terry:
I am not downplaying your attempts to do the same thing as Mary as far as educating me as to the bible and encouraging me to get back in the fold of believers in some way. I acknowledge that your outreach is just as loving and well intended and understand you must continue to try to persuade me so I won’t be “lost” and I am not going to criticize anyone for that. I try to convince people to do what I think is “right” at times, too. Not everyone agrees….
Mary said:
Well, we have had a VERY busy time here the last week or so, but all the kids are back in Madison and Chicago and the dishes and tables are again put away after feeding 26 for the thanksgiving feast. Joe lead the charge in the kitchen assisted by Nick, Bill, George and brother Tom. They had a great time, calling for the "scullery maids" to clean up the dishes multiple times through out their preparations. The food was wonderful and they will have to decide what recipes to keep for next year and which ones to change. Joe LOVES to head up the big adventure. You will have to join sometime with the "boy" chef time!!
Anyway... I really would like to respond to your comment about the possibility of being more than one way to heaven. Scripture teaches that there is only one way to heaven and that is through belief in the Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus says in the gospel that He is The Way and no one will come to the Father except through Him. I am created by God, for God and belief in any other gospel will get me into the group of people turned away on judgement day because I do not know God. My name will not be written in the Lambs Book of Life (Jesus book of the names of believers). Jesus is the Lamb of God ( the perfect sacrifice for the forgiveness of sin) Scripture never says he is one of the Lambs. Other belief systems may relieve sickness etc for a while, but they will never satisfy my need for a savior of my sin. I tried "religion" through my following the rules etc of Catholicism and came up empty when I needed a reason to live. I had 2 little children at the time and a husband ..... All the things the world said should satisfy, but was very much struggling with a reason to live. No religion will ever satisfy ... only a relationship with the creator of it all. I finally found my reason for living.... it was giving my whole heart to Him. To empty myself of rules and righteousness, and ask Jesus to live in my heart and serve Him alone. In all that I do, every word I speak, I do it all for my Lord Jesus Christ. It is not about me and what I know etc, it is about what He has done for me in paying for my sins. All other systems are about me and what I have done. They are all systems of legalism and rules. Only Christianity is about serving a risen savior. The others have dead leaders. Jesus Christ is seated at the right hand of God waiting for his "church" (the believers) to sit with him in heaven at the second coming. Jesus is the fulfillment of the prophecies of the old testament. He brings a new commandment.... being the Lamb of God. I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. He directs my life through His Word, teaching me to rely more and more on Him. I am not a robot, but am in a relationship with Him. I made this transition when I committed my life to Him Dec 4, 1984. As I prayed that day I no longer was searching for a reason to live, and had a desire to read the bible. I understood what the words said for the first time ever. Before that day I had all your same concerns and issues with God and the bible.... but no more. Scripture teaches about the road to eternal life being narrow because Jesus is the only Way. Many will say "but I cast out demons etc" but all the good works will never replace the need to have a relationship with Jesus. Heritage, religion, good works, race, status, any man made system will always come short of the ability to qualify me for eternal life. God created me to give Glory to Him only. Serving any other master (self, children, job, idle,....) will get me sent away on judgment day. I am a flawed human for sure, but forgiven through faith in Jesus payment through the work done on Calvary. I have never gone back to suicide, because I now have a purpose to live. My kids weren't even enough to keep me living. The biggest reason I never took my life is I was worried about who would care for Eliz and Nick. Joe was working long hours (still does) and I did not want to send them to daycare for 50 hours or more each week. But I still struggled with how to put me out of my pain and suffering..... until I realized I was missing the most important thing in my life. I was trying to work out my own life through religion, and came up very depressed. It was without purpose.... Then I found Jesus!! He continues to change me from the inside out. I did not add him to any other system but let Him be my only way. He died for me, cares for me, forgives my sins, teaches me, corrects me, and loves me (warts and all!!) After over 20 years of serving Him, I only see more clearly the consistency in scripture. I am confident I am not wrong... and have nothing to lose if I am wrong. I no longer consider suicide, and have a song in my heart and smile on my face.
For today.... I must run. I know Mom worries about us talking about faith, and it interfering with our relationship, but I believe in unconditional love and trust you do too. If I got to heaven and God lets me in (which is what I believe will happen) and I am correct with my belief of through Christ alone I get to enter heaven.... I will never be able to forgive myself that I did not share the truth about The Way because I did not think you would want to hear me. No matter what you choose to do with your faith, I will always love you as my big brother. And because you are my brother, I will continue to pray that you choose to follow Jesus Christ as your personal savior.
May God richly bless you as you consider my beliefs and thoughts!!
Love, Mary
Michael replied:
Hi, Mary.
Sorry to be slow, but biz gets in the way at times.
First I want to thank you for your loving way that you explain your beliefs and how they have saved you from self inflicted harm. I am glad it works for you. I don't mind discussing these issues or being encouraged to read the bible, etc., as long as it is not in such a dogmatic way it just turns people off. I think you expressed your views wonderfully and I know that you (and others) feel the need, obligation even, to try to spread your beliefs to others since your beliefs have helped you, and your faith directs you to help others, also.
I have off and on over the years investigated the bible and I just don't agree w/ you re its consistency (not that I am the greatest bible scholar of all time....but I do read). I basically started my doubting way back in high school and had pretty much become non-religious by college. I felt guilty about it for a while, and sometimes over the years felt I "should" try to get some sort of spirituality going again, but even investigations of other religions or philosophies have not caused me to feel enlightened or that I need to join up.
OTOH, I do not get depressed, do not feel the need to search for God, guardian angels, etc., and am generally quite happy and fulfilled. I find purpose in life all over the place, in loving family, in helping others, enjoying nature, being w/ friends, and satisfying work. I have had feelings of some sort of spiritual connection when praying (years ago) or meditating (should do it more) but can feel just as "at one" in nature, w/ Phyllis (and certain good friends), during a good workout, and when all is going well w/ a business deal.
I believe in science, logic, reason, but acknowledge we cannot understand everything (yet) that way. But we learn more every day. Once in the past the sun was a god because people didn't understand how it worked. Now we do. There were gods for rain and volcanoes but now we see those are just part of nature. Once we thought the sun and moon revolved around us while we lived on a flat surface, now we know we are a small part of a large universe and are not at the center of it.
There are healings, mental connections (ESP?), communication (maybe) w/ people who have died, entangled subatomic particles that appear in two places at once, and lots of other things that we don't understand yet, but probably will some day. I don't have to see it to believe it, but it does have to be based in reason, repeatable experiments, multiple observations, and verified by other scientists.
I know science will never have all the answers because each new answer generates more questions. Ethics of technology will be discussed and fought over as new technologies were in the past. When Drs. started doing dissections 500 yrs. ago to see how the body worked people thought that was a sin (and a crime). 100 yrs. ago blood transfusions were "playing god", but now they are an accepted part of modern medicine. Transplanting organs was denounced (still is by some) even though it saved lives. Now we are on the threshold of being able to control genetics, inheritability, avoid disease starting in the first place, and many are denouncing that as unethical, against God's law, etc.
Maybe there is an afterlife: Maybe our energy (soul) does survive in some form, but maybe it is just a physical fact, a law of nature that some day we will understand just like we understand why the sun rises in the east. That is why I am not concerned. Either there is no after life and when we die that's it. Or there is and when we die we go there. Or even reincarnate to a bodily life again as some believe (and there is as much anecdotal evidence of that as there is for "miracles"). If so, we'll all be in heaven-after life together. That's just the way it works. I see no evidence (outside of holy books) that one must believe a certain way or follow a certain behavior to have an after life if one exists. I see many religions, books, and leaders that say they are the one and only path. They can't all be right. And I don't see the bible as being any more "right" than the others. Most seem to contain some good advice mixed w/ some history but also w/ plenty of mistakes, historical fiction, bad science, and antiquated rules.
But like you, Mary, I love you and all the family. We may have widely differing opinions and beliefs on religion - which leads to different beliefs re politics, but so long as we care for each other we will be tight in this world and the next if there is one. I'd much rather be open about these differences than slink around trying to avoid conflict.
So, much love to you, and see you in a few days!!!
Michael.
Mary refining things a bit for Michael
Hi Michael
It is fine with me to put all our conversations on the blog. I am soooo computer illiterate I would not even know how!! Ali has always done things for me on the computer, and now she up and got married and moved out.... the nerve of that girl (haha)!!
Just one more comment before signing off.... The word "Christianity" today is quite often misused. It is often used to describe anyone who is not Jewish. I do not believe I am religious because I am a Christian. Religions are all created by people and full of flaws because of this. Belief in Jesus Christ as my personal savior makes me a Christian. I do not belong to any religion, but to Christ. I am therefore a Christ-ian. I am clarifying this because I do not want to be identified with any one religion. I don’t really like "religion" because it identifies me with an incomplete system of legalism and rules that depend on me doing something to prove I am good enough. Belonging to Christ totally changes my identity. I am now relying on what He did for me, not what I might do for him. I need to do nothing because it was already done for me. I used to trust religion and it only fed into my depression. I do choose to worship with a body of believers, but the church title does not matter. I worship with others who believe in the gospel of Jesus Christ. When you talk about religion being inconsistent etc I totally agree with you. I am not at all about religion, but rather having a relationship with Christ. Hopefully this makes sense. Let me know if it came out clear as mud!!! (This is foundational to how I see my faith not being one of religion)
Anyway... Go ahead and put our conversations on the blog. Its "date night" so I must be off to get cleaned up. Joe and I are looking forward to seeing you next week. I will check with mom and her calendar but we are thinking maybe Fri. for dinner....
Love, Mary
Michael’s final comment.
Dear Mary,
Yes, I understand that you are not tied to any brand of religion or name on the door of the church, and I agree that is a good thing. Cut out the middle man and go direct to your source then surround yourself with people you like who have similar beliefs (or at least who don’t challenge your beliefs) so you can have the human community we all seem to need.
And a PS to Terry:
I am not downplaying your attempts to do the same thing as Mary as far as educating me as to the bible and encouraging me to get back in the fold of believers in some way. I acknowledge that your outreach is just as loving and well intended and understand you must continue to try to persuade me so I won’t be “lost” and I am not going to criticize anyone for that. I try to convince people to do what I think is “right” at times, too. Not everyone agrees….
response to Jesus birth and Christmas....
Yes... Christmas today is not based on a single day of events, but actually a combination of traditions pooled over the years. Many of these traditions are straight from pagan customs. The Roman government in the early years wanted to have a religion for all to celebrate so they combined practices from far and wide to keep everyone included. We do not know the exact day of Jesus birth (it was likely not even in the winter) but none of this is the point of the teaching of the virgin birth. God never told us to celebrate Christmas. We do, out of choice, and with customs straight from paganism.... all very true. Bottom line.... this does nothing to negate the virgin birth of Jesus Christ.
The first Christ followers (christians) were mostly Jews. The 3 gospels (called synoptic gospels because of their similar writing) were written to 3 distinct audiences because of the writers knowledge and the audience they were writing to. Therefore, there is a different emphasis in each of them. They do not contradict, but do put more emphasis on certain parts of the story. Johns gospel was written later so he includes things from a little different angle. All of them were based on oral tradition and eye witness reports, so have a different angle on the same events.
Matthew focused his writings on the Jews. He assumes they are well versed in the old testament and traces scripture to show Jesus as descendent from Abraham and son of David. His main purpose was to prove to his Jewish reader that Jesus is their promised Messiah. He mostly shows this through fulfillment of the prophecies stated in the OT. Mark, through his explanation of various Jewish customs seems to be talking to a mostly gentile audience. He talks of persecution and things of special concern to the Roman believers. He seems to emphasize more of what Jesus did than what he said. Luke, probably a Gentile by birth, was well educated in Greek culture and a physician by profession. He focuses on the works and teaching of Jesus that are espicially important for understanding the way of salvation. Because of his education, his accounts seem to appeal to both Jew and Gentile. Luke seems to bring out the fact that Jews and Gentiles are both in God's plan. John states flat out that he wrote so all may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in His name. When studied together these gospels give a complete picture of the years of Jesus as he was born and taught and was crucified and rose from the dead.
With this in mind, I will attempt to explain the article Michael included refering to Jesus birth being a myth and full of contradictions. Yes, the early christians were in fact a lot of Jews. Being Jewish is like being Irish.... Even though you my be a christian, it does not change your heritage. The apostle Paul did in fact know of the virgin birth, but his mission was to teach how to live out christianity, not teach about the virgin birth. So, yes, he does not mention it. Each writer was inspired by God so did not all include the same descriptions of the same events. In galations Paul refers to Jesus being born of a woman to show his human side. He was conceived by the spirit of God, but born of a woman. (God made man) Mark focused of being a disciple of Jesus and was especially focused on the Gentiles in Rome. Therefore, he did not start with the birth of Jesus, but rather with the start of his adult ministry. Just because John states Joseph to be Jesus legal father here on earth does not negate his being the son of God.
As to Jesus ancestry, tracing him to the line of David, they are the same. Luke has all the generations mentioned, going in reverse from Joseph to Adam, showing Jesus relationship to the whole human race. Matthew only mentions the heirs to the throne of David showing his Kingly role. Luke includes Mary in the geneology (seen as a discrepencey mentioning Heli) Mark 12:35-37 does not question Jesus as Messiah, but rather show he is more than the son of David, but as David declared he is Lord.
As far as the birth and the magi coming, this all happened over multiple years. We have put these in together in the christmas celebration as the same event but know fully well that it actually was multiple years. Joseph did have to go to register because he was from the line of David. There were multitudes of people being this was a new decree. Both gospels say they lived in Nazareth, but Jesus was born in Bethlahem. John quotes confusion of some of the people of the time in Ch 7, but nowhere does he validate these thoughts.
A star leading or directing people to Jesus?? Why not?? Scripture tells of the Israelites being lead through the desert by a cloud by day and fire by night. This is God leading.... He really can do it anyway he wants. Humans are still unable to use our humans minds to understand the ways of God. Camels are not mentioned in the new testament.... nor are dogs, cats etc. Does that mean they did not exist?? I think not. Besides, what does the mention of camels have to do with the virgin birth??
When someone gives more detail in a story than another person, do we say the one with the shorter story got it wrong?? (men, think of you telling a story and your wife telling a story... doesn't one of you typically have more details than the other?? Does that change the accuracy of the story?? ) The things mentioned in the acticle on chrismas as discrepencies in the gospels concerning Jesus early years are all of this situation. Some gospel writters give more detail than others. If you read each one and compare them to each other, they do not contradict, but rather have more or less detail given.
Bottom line.... we as humans will never be able to fully comprehend how Jesus can be fully God and fully man and because of this never sin. We will never be able to explain how he can know everything even before it happens. And, why does he create us even tho he knows we will not always make wise choices -- sometimes even horrible choices?? In human terms, he is a selfish God. He creates us to give Him glory and have no other gods before him. After all, He is God and gets to make the rules. And, in the end, giving glory and worship to Him, gives me everlasting peace, purpose in my life here on earth and ultimately everlasting life with Him in heaven.
Was Jesus born of a virgin? Yes... Are we commanded to have a special celebration of this event? No. Over the years we have put together a list of traditions that make up the celebration of christmas. The celebration itself is made by humans. It is simply a tool we have chosen to use to remember the birth of Jesus. Some choose to celebrate it without Jesus at all and only talk about Santa Claus. That is their choice. It still does not negate the virgin birth. And while Jesus birth is a miracle, it is incomplete without his death and resurrection. He was born to die as the perfect sacrifice for your sins and mine. And, without the resurrection he died for no reason. And, if I could get to heaven any other way, his death was not even necessary and he was in fact wasting his time. I DO need a savior and am forever thankful for what Christ did for me. And yes, that did require being born....
For now.... enough said!
May God richly bless you all this Christmas season!!
In Christ, Mary
The first Christ followers (christians) were mostly Jews. The 3 gospels (called synoptic gospels because of their similar writing) were written to 3 distinct audiences because of the writers knowledge and the audience they were writing to. Therefore, there is a different emphasis in each of them. They do not contradict, but do put more emphasis on certain parts of the story. Johns gospel was written later so he includes things from a little different angle. All of them were based on oral tradition and eye witness reports, so have a different angle on the same events.
Matthew focused his writings on the Jews. He assumes they are well versed in the old testament and traces scripture to show Jesus as descendent from Abraham and son of David. His main purpose was to prove to his Jewish reader that Jesus is their promised Messiah. He mostly shows this through fulfillment of the prophecies stated in the OT. Mark, through his explanation of various Jewish customs seems to be talking to a mostly gentile audience. He talks of persecution and things of special concern to the Roman believers. He seems to emphasize more of what Jesus did than what he said. Luke, probably a Gentile by birth, was well educated in Greek culture and a physician by profession. He focuses on the works and teaching of Jesus that are espicially important for understanding the way of salvation. Because of his education, his accounts seem to appeal to both Jew and Gentile. Luke seems to bring out the fact that Jews and Gentiles are both in God's plan. John states flat out that he wrote so all may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in His name. When studied together these gospels give a complete picture of the years of Jesus as he was born and taught and was crucified and rose from the dead.
With this in mind, I will attempt to explain the article Michael included refering to Jesus birth being a myth and full of contradictions. Yes, the early christians were in fact a lot of Jews. Being Jewish is like being Irish.... Even though you my be a christian, it does not change your heritage. The apostle Paul did in fact know of the virgin birth, but his mission was to teach how to live out christianity, not teach about the virgin birth. So, yes, he does not mention it. Each writer was inspired by God so did not all include the same descriptions of the same events. In galations Paul refers to Jesus being born of a woman to show his human side. He was conceived by the spirit of God, but born of a woman. (God made man) Mark focused of being a disciple of Jesus and was especially focused on the Gentiles in Rome. Therefore, he did not start with the birth of Jesus, but rather with the start of his adult ministry. Just because John states Joseph to be Jesus legal father here on earth does not negate his being the son of God.
As to Jesus ancestry, tracing him to the line of David, they are the same. Luke has all the generations mentioned, going in reverse from Joseph to Adam, showing Jesus relationship to the whole human race. Matthew only mentions the heirs to the throne of David showing his Kingly role. Luke includes Mary in the geneology (seen as a discrepencey mentioning Heli) Mark 12:35-37 does not question Jesus as Messiah, but rather show he is more than the son of David, but as David declared he is Lord.
As far as the birth and the magi coming, this all happened over multiple years. We have put these in together in the christmas celebration as the same event but know fully well that it actually was multiple years. Joseph did have to go to register because he was from the line of David. There were multitudes of people being this was a new decree. Both gospels say they lived in Nazareth, but Jesus was born in Bethlahem. John quotes confusion of some of the people of the time in Ch 7, but nowhere does he validate these thoughts.
A star leading or directing people to Jesus?? Why not?? Scripture tells of the Israelites being lead through the desert by a cloud by day and fire by night. This is God leading.... He really can do it anyway he wants. Humans are still unable to use our humans minds to understand the ways of God. Camels are not mentioned in the new testament.... nor are dogs, cats etc. Does that mean they did not exist?? I think not. Besides, what does the mention of camels have to do with the virgin birth??
When someone gives more detail in a story than another person, do we say the one with the shorter story got it wrong?? (men, think of you telling a story and your wife telling a story... doesn't one of you typically have more details than the other?? Does that change the accuracy of the story?? ) The things mentioned in the acticle on chrismas as discrepencies in the gospels concerning Jesus early years are all of this situation. Some gospel writters give more detail than others. If you read each one and compare them to each other, they do not contradict, but rather have more or less detail given.
Bottom line.... we as humans will never be able to fully comprehend how Jesus can be fully God and fully man and because of this never sin. We will never be able to explain how he can know everything even before it happens. And, why does he create us even tho he knows we will not always make wise choices -- sometimes even horrible choices?? In human terms, he is a selfish God. He creates us to give Him glory and have no other gods before him. After all, He is God and gets to make the rules. And, in the end, giving glory and worship to Him, gives me everlasting peace, purpose in my life here on earth and ultimately everlasting life with Him in heaven.
Was Jesus born of a virgin? Yes... Are we commanded to have a special celebration of this event? No. Over the years we have put together a list of traditions that make up the celebration of christmas. The celebration itself is made by humans. It is simply a tool we have chosen to use to remember the birth of Jesus. Some choose to celebrate it without Jesus at all and only talk about Santa Claus. That is their choice. It still does not negate the virgin birth. And while Jesus birth is a miracle, it is incomplete without his death and resurrection. He was born to die as the perfect sacrifice for your sins and mine. And, without the resurrection he died for no reason. And, if I could get to heaven any other way, his death was not even necessary and he was in fact wasting his time. I DO need a savior and am forever thankful for what Christ did for me. And yes, that did require being born....
For now.... enough said!
May God richly bless you all this Christmas season!!
In Christ, Mary
Friday, November 30, 2007
Christmas Myths
I think we all know that Jesus may not have been born on Dec. 25 and that Christmas trees are based on a pagan practice, but there are a lot of interesting points in this guy's article. Just food for thought, not something I am saying everyone should ascribe to.
Christmas myths?
Check it out.
Christmas myths?
Check it out.
Friday, November 23, 2007
Going to Heaven
First of all, I would like to thank Dakota Bill for providing a comment (under “Bible Conflicts”) spelling out in much greater detail and with much better references to the bible than I ever could, some reasoning as to why I may not be completely barred from entering heaven. My simplistic reasoning was simply that if there is a heaven, a loving God would not keep people out who were basically good people but who for some reason did not have the level of belief that most of you have. And even with your high level of faith (Ben) you still have doubts about your right to enter. I’m quite sure you’re all OK unless you veer radically to the dark side later in life.
Second, I would like to explain who Dakota Bill is and why I invited him into this discussion. Bill grew up in South Dakota (hence the handle) and he and his wife were my high school Catholic youth group leaders in Sauk in 1964-66 or so. He is a writer and editor (now retired, but that’s why he does it so well) and a proud liberal in political and religious matters. Since we had discussions about topics Terry and I were occasionally discussing, and Bill always has good input, I asked him on board. And I’m glad I did. It is not a matter of numbers, or getting people who agree with me, it is just good for everyone to hear new voices every now and then – we all need to get out of our own echo chambers.
Third, (this is weird), the only person to keep in the dark on this discussion is Mom (& Dad). She doesn’t have a computer, doesn’t email these days, so is not likely to get involved unless someone raises the existence of the blog in discussion. I know she is not happy about all of you who fled the Catholic church and would be further saddened to see how non-religious I am (even tho she knows it she is in a bit of denial about the extent of it). I know it bothers her already, so it is better to not make it worse. She still feels like she has failed her religious obligations by not keeping us all in Mother Church. I trust you will understand.
And finally, I hope you are not thinking I am an obnoxious jerk about all this. I find it an interesting discussion and religion and its power fascinates me. Phyllis thinks I am a little crazy reading or watching TV shows about bible interpretation, archeology in the holy land, or debates between evolutionists and creationists, and lately I am very worried about how religion affects politics. I really would like to NOT be involved in politics, but we all get dragged into it because it affects our schools, our businesses, our dollars, the taxes we pay, whether the potholes get fixed, the snow gets removed, and now because of wars we fund (and send people to risk their lives). Church and state seem to be less and less separated and that worries me. This country was founded in large part to get away from state and religion being too mixed up with each other and now some feel we are headed down a similar path. It bears discussion and observation. So, we’re all involved in politics whether we want to be or not.
Please don’t be shy, and don’t think anyone will be insulted or hurt by your comments. This is a good place to state your opinion or ask questions that you might feel uncomfortable about in another place.
Love to all, Michael.
Second, I would like to explain who Dakota Bill is and why I invited him into this discussion. Bill grew up in South Dakota (hence the handle) and he and his wife were my high school Catholic youth group leaders in Sauk in 1964-66 or so. He is a writer and editor (now retired, but that’s why he does it so well) and a proud liberal in political and religious matters. Since we had discussions about topics Terry and I were occasionally discussing, and Bill always has good input, I asked him on board. And I’m glad I did. It is not a matter of numbers, or getting people who agree with me, it is just good for everyone to hear new voices every now and then – we all need to get out of our own echo chambers.
Third, (this is weird), the only person to keep in the dark on this discussion is Mom (& Dad). She doesn’t have a computer, doesn’t email these days, so is not likely to get involved unless someone raises the existence of the blog in discussion. I know she is not happy about all of you who fled the Catholic church and would be further saddened to see how non-religious I am (even tho she knows it she is in a bit of denial about the extent of it). I know it bothers her already, so it is better to not make it worse. She still feels like she has failed her religious obligations by not keeping us all in Mother Church. I trust you will understand.
And finally, I hope you are not thinking I am an obnoxious jerk about all this. I find it an interesting discussion and religion and its power fascinates me. Phyllis thinks I am a little crazy reading or watching TV shows about bible interpretation, archeology in the holy land, or debates between evolutionists and creationists, and lately I am very worried about how religion affects politics. I really would like to NOT be involved in politics, but we all get dragged into it because it affects our schools, our businesses, our dollars, the taxes we pay, whether the potholes get fixed, the snow gets removed, and now because of wars we fund (and send people to risk their lives). Church and state seem to be less and less separated and that worries me. This country was founded in large part to get away from state and religion being too mixed up with each other and now some feel we are headed down a similar path. It bears discussion and observation. So, we’re all involved in politics whether we want to be or not.
Please don’t be shy, and don’t think anyone will be insulted or hurt by your comments. This is a good place to state your opinion or ask questions that you might feel uncomfortable about in another place.
Love to all, Michael.
Thursday, November 22, 2007
Easy on the pumpkin pie ....
Happy Thanksgiving to all!
I hope you all eat plenty today, but eat light for the rest of the weekend so you stay healthy and live long. Then contribute the leftovers or some cash to a group that helps feed others.
There is a very comprehensive article in the Economist about religion in the world. It doesn't so much take a position as explain a lot of the tensions between various factions. Worth reading (long, but good - keep following the "next article" link at the bottom of each section).
Here's the link (click it).
More discussion soon.
Love, Michael.
I hope you all eat plenty today, but eat light for the rest of the weekend so you stay healthy and live long. Then contribute the leftovers or some cash to a group that helps feed others.
There is a very comprehensive article in the Economist about religion in the world. It doesn't so much take a position as explain a lot of the tensions between various factions. Worth reading (long, but good - keep following the "next article" link at the bottom of each section).
Here's the link (click it).
More discussion soon.
Love, Michael.
Wednesday, November 21, 2007
Stem Cell Breakthrough
Hopefully this will help science advance and allay the concerns of those who think human life begins at conception. (Click on link to read article.) Altho there is much more research to be done and techniques to develop, this has the potential to help cure disease, grow new tissues, etc., and save lives. For a while yet, there will probably be research on both paths, embryonic and this new method of creating stem cells, until it is certain that the new method works as well as using embryonic stem cells.
You all know my thoughts already - I had no problem w/ embryonic stem cell research. Does this help those of you who were concerned about it?
You all know my thoughts already - I had no problem w/ embryonic stem cell research. Does this help those of you who were concerned about it?
Monday, November 19, 2007
Bible Conflicts
I guess we are still on bible inconsistencies. I am definitely no bible scholar and I’m sure there are many of you that have read more of it than me. I just read what others say about it and then go look to see if they are BS-ing. So here are just a few examples of what I read.
Is the bible right in both cases? Can God deceive people?
Proverbs 30:5 (King James Version)
5Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.
Ezekiel 14:9 (King James Version)
9And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.
Is he giving out bad laws meant to deceive?
Ezekiel 20
24Because they had not executed my judgments, but had despised my statutes, and had polluted my sabbaths, and their eyes were after their fathers' idols.
25Wherefore I gave them also statutes that were not good, and judgments whereby they should not live;
Promises not kept?
John: Jesus says that whatever you ask either him or his father for you will receive. (if you don’t get what you asked for it God’s will?) 14:13-14, 15:7, 15:16, 16:23
Multiple marriages (apparently there are quite a few cases)
Genesis 4 19 Lamech married two women, one named Adah and the other Zillah. 20 Adah gave birth to Jabal; he was the father of those who live in tents and raise livestock. 21 His brother's name was Jubal; he was the father of all who play the harp and flute. 22 Zillah also had a son, Tubal-Cain, who forged all kinds of tools out of [g] bronze and iron. Tubal-Cain's sister was Naamah.
the polygamous household of Jacob, Leah and Rachel.
Not to forget - The surrogate motherhood of the handmaid.
Incest not allowed Leviticus 18:6-18, but …
Genesis 20:11-12 (New International Version)
11 Abraham replied, "I said to myself, 'There is surely no fear of God in this place, and they will kill me because of my wife.' 12 Besides, she really is my sister, the daughter of my father though not of my mother; and she became my wife.
"And Cain knew his wife." That's nice, but where did she come from? The Bible doesn't mention any of Cain's sisters. Well, maybe he married his mom. In any case, Cain and the mysterious Mrs. Cain have a son (another blue cigar!). His name is Enoch and he builds a city (population 3?). 4:17
Rape suggested: Genesis, Chapter 19, Verse 8.
8. Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.
More rape: Genesis, Chapter 34, Verses 1-2.
And Dinah the daughter of Leah, which she bare unto Jacob, went out to see the daughters of the land.
2. And when Shechem the son of Hamor the Hivite, prince of the country, saw her, he took her, and lay with her, and defiled her.
New Testament too:
Matthew: There are 29 generations listed from David to Jesus in Matthew's genealogy, while Luke's (3:23-31) has 43. Except for David at one end and Jesus at the other, there are only three names in the two lists that are the same. 1:6-16
"Whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven." According to the gospels (Mt.26:69-75, Mk.14:66-72, Lk.22:55-62, Jn.15:18-27), Peter denied Jesus three times before men. Therefore Jesus must have denied Peter before God. 10:33
Jesus lists the "ten commandments," but his list has only six, and the sixth is not one of the ten. The commandments given by Jesus are secular, not religious, in nature. 19:18
Jesus curses a fig tree and the tree dies immediately (showing the world how much God Hates Figs). But in Mark's gospel (11:14, 20-21) the cursed fig tree doesn't die until the next morning. 21:19-20 And was it fig season?
Science:
Mark: "In those days ... the moon shall not give her light, and the stars of heaven shall fall." Of course this is nonsense. The billions of stars will never fall to earth and the moon does not produce its own light. 13:24-25
Epilepsy is caused by devils. 9:39-42 (not according to modern medicine)
Genesis: God creates light and separates light from darkness, and day from night, on the first day. Yet he didn't make the light producing objects (the sun and the stars) until the fourth day (1:14-19). 1:3-5
Gen: God makes the animals and parades them before Adam to see if any would strike his fancy. But none seem to have what it takes to please him. After making the animals, God has Adam name them all. The naming of several million species must have kept Adam busy for a while. 2:18-20
2 different creation accounts ?
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/accounts.html
All knowing:
Luke: How could an omniscient being "increase in wisdom"? And how could God increase "in favor with God."? 2:52
And why would an all knowing god have all these questions about “where is Adam?” and other times God had to question man for info.
All right, I guess that’s enough. You can read or search the internet and find all kinds of these kinds of citations, some better than others. I’m sure it is all explainable as miracles, bad translations, etc., or further interpretations of the text. Same as you can search and find all kinds of preachers explaining why it is all literally true. Back to “it’s a matter of faith”.
I don’t expect people who follow the bible to throw it aside based on this, but the point is there are problems here when read assuming the plain meaning of the words presented. I realize it has been translated, but no book has been so carefully checked out as the bible and it still has many problems.
The point is, it may be a great teaching book for some, but in light of modern knowledge seems that it can’t be literally true any more than we believe the mythology of old was true. But the Romans did! Children’s books are good teaching tools, too.
Mary: Are you saying God created the world a few thousand years ago pretty much as it is today?
Or are you thinking he created the matter and processes billions of years ago that would lead to today’s world?
Ben, thanks for your comments.
I’ll have to respond another time. Getting too late.
Love to you all, Michael
Is the bible right in both cases? Can God deceive people?
Proverbs 30:5 (King James Version)
5Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.
Ezekiel 14:9 (King James Version)
9And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.
Is he giving out bad laws meant to deceive?
Ezekiel 20
24Because they had not executed my judgments, but had despised my statutes, and had polluted my sabbaths, and their eyes were after their fathers' idols.
25Wherefore I gave them also statutes that were not good, and judgments whereby they should not live;
Promises not kept?
John: Jesus says that whatever you ask either him or his father for you will receive. (if you don’t get what you asked for it God’s will?) 14:13-14, 15:7, 15:16, 16:23
Multiple marriages (apparently there are quite a few cases)
Genesis 4 19 Lamech married two women, one named Adah and the other Zillah. 20 Adah gave birth to Jabal; he was the father of those who live in tents and raise livestock. 21 His brother's name was Jubal; he was the father of all who play the harp and flute. 22 Zillah also had a son, Tubal-Cain, who forged all kinds of tools out of [g] bronze and iron. Tubal-Cain's sister was Naamah.
the polygamous household of Jacob, Leah and Rachel.
Not to forget - The surrogate motherhood of the handmaid.
Incest not allowed Leviticus 18:6-18, but …
Genesis 20:11-12 (New International Version)
11 Abraham replied, "I said to myself, 'There is surely no fear of God in this place, and they will kill me because of my wife.' 12 Besides, she really is my sister, the daughter of my father though not of my mother; and she became my wife.
"And Cain knew his wife." That's nice, but where did she come from? The Bible doesn't mention any of Cain's sisters. Well, maybe he married his mom. In any case, Cain and the mysterious Mrs. Cain have a son (another blue cigar!). His name is Enoch and he builds a city (population 3?). 4:17
Rape suggested: Genesis, Chapter 19, Verse 8.
8. Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.
More rape: Genesis, Chapter 34, Verses 1-2.
And Dinah the daughter of Leah, which she bare unto Jacob, went out to see the daughters of the land.
2. And when Shechem the son of Hamor the Hivite, prince of the country, saw her, he took her, and lay with her, and defiled her.
New Testament too:
Matthew: There are 29 generations listed from David to Jesus in Matthew's genealogy, while Luke's (3:23-31) has 43. Except for David at one end and Jesus at the other, there are only three names in the two lists that are the same. 1:6-16
"Whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven." According to the gospels (Mt.26:69-75, Mk.14:66-72, Lk.22:55-62, Jn.15:18-27), Peter denied Jesus three times before men. Therefore Jesus must have denied Peter before God. 10:33
Jesus lists the "ten commandments," but his list has only six, and the sixth is not one of the ten. The commandments given by Jesus are secular, not religious, in nature. 19:18
Jesus curses a fig tree and the tree dies immediately (showing the world how much God Hates Figs). But in Mark's gospel (11:14, 20-21) the cursed fig tree doesn't die until the next morning. 21:19-20 And was it fig season?
Science:
Mark: "In those days ... the moon shall not give her light, and the stars of heaven shall fall." Of course this is nonsense. The billions of stars will never fall to earth and the moon does not produce its own light. 13:24-25
Epilepsy is caused by devils. 9:39-42 (not according to modern medicine)
Genesis: God creates light and separates light from darkness, and day from night, on the first day. Yet he didn't make the light producing objects (the sun and the stars) until the fourth day (1:14-19). 1:3-5
Gen: God makes the animals and parades them before Adam to see if any would strike his fancy. But none seem to have what it takes to please him. After making the animals, God has Adam name them all. The naming of several million species must have kept Adam busy for a while. 2:18-20
2 different creation accounts ?
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/accounts.html
All knowing:
Luke: How could an omniscient being "increase in wisdom"? And how could God increase "in favor with God."? 2:52
And why would an all knowing god have all these questions about “where is Adam?” and other times God had to question man for info.
All right, I guess that’s enough. You can read or search the internet and find all kinds of these kinds of citations, some better than others. I’m sure it is all explainable as miracles, bad translations, etc., or further interpretations of the text. Same as you can search and find all kinds of preachers explaining why it is all literally true. Back to “it’s a matter of faith”.
I don’t expect people who follow the bible to throw it aside based on this, but the point is there are problems here when read assuming the plain meaning of the words presented. I realize it has been translated, but no book has been so carefully checked out as the bible and it still has many problems.
The point is, it may be a great teaching book for some, but in light of modern knowledge seems that it can’t be literally true any more than we believe the mythology of old was true. But the Romans did! Children’s books are good teaching tools, too.
Mary: Are you saying God created the world a few thousand years ago pretty much as it is today?
Or are you thinking he created the matter and processes billions of years ago that would lead to today’s world?
Ben, thanks for your comments.
I’ll have to respond another time. Getting too late.
Love to you all, Michael
Sunday, November 18, 2007
Iraq war consequences
Is this good timing or what? Here is an article from SFGATE (SF Chronicle) today discussing why a war or any kind of attack would be a bad idea.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2007/11/18/INE6TCD71.DTL
Interestingly enough, this is what Dakota Bill said, too, in his comment to the introduction, which just proves he reads the news.
Also Dakota Bill noted what I was going to note re the biblical inconsistencies - that there are many web sites and scholars discussing tons of contradictions. Here's one:
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/contradictions.html
Some scholarly stuff....
I cannot find the reference to an East Coast professor of religion's book where he notes that serious scholars do not read the bible literally altho he believes it supports his religious positions.
Yes, inconsistencies are probably explained away by those believers who have blind faith, but a plain reading of many of the bible passages seems clear that they all can't be literally true and not in conflict w/ other passages. I think many people "cherry pick" the parts they like and ignore the parts they don't. Some things are not scientifically or physically possible - like covering the earth w/ water to a depth sufficient to cover all land and mountain ranges (there aren't that many water molecules on the planet). Or creating the stars after creating the light. And one has to wonder about all the references seeming to condone slavery, incest, multiple wives, etc., that we consider "immoral" today.
You describe Pasqual's wager late in your last reply. Pasqual was a famous mathematician who stated that there was a rational reason to believe in God. The reason was that he compared the cost of sacrificing Sundays against the possibility of hell and decided that the potential risk outweighed the costs of belief by far too much. Therefore, he stated that belief in God was the safe bet. However, don't you think an all knowing god would recognize a faker? You either have faith or you don't. Plus, I think I am living a life that will get me into the after life, if there is one.
That's it for today. I just hope our Prez is not about to give an order to bomb Iran. It is waaaay too early for that. We are far from out of options.
BTW - I set this up for anyone reading to add a comment or even write a new post. Feel free to jump in everybody.
Love to all, Michael
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2007/11/18/INE6TCD71.DTL
Interestingly enough, this is what Dakota Bill said, too, in his comment to the introduction, which just proves he reads the news.
Also Dakota Bill noted what I was going to note re the biblical inconsistencies - that there are many web sites and scholars discussing tons of contradictions. Here's one:
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/contradictions.html
Some scholarly stuff....
I cannot find the reference to an East Coast professor of religion's book where he notes that serious scholars do not read the bible literally altho he believes it supports his religious positions.
Yes, inconsistencies are probably explained away by those believers who have blind faith, but a plain reading of many of the bible passages seems clear that they all can't be literally true and not in conflict w/ other passages. I think many people "cherry pick" the parts they like and ignore the parts they don't. Some things are not scientifically or physically possible - like covering the earth w/ water to a depth sufficient to cover all land and mountain ranges (there aren't that many water molecules on the planet). Or creating the stars after creating the light. And one has to wonder about all the references seeming to condone slavery, incest, multiple wives, etc., that we consider "immoral" today.
You describe Pasqual's wager late in your last reply. Pasqual was a famous mathematician who stated that there was a rational reason to believe in God. The reason was that he compared the cost of sacrificing Sundays against the possibility of hell and decided that the potential risk outweighed the costs of belief by far too much. Therefore, he stated that belief in God was the safe bet. However, don't you think an all knowing god would recognize a faker? You either have faith or you don't. Plus, I think I am living a life that will get me into the after life, if there is one.
That's it for today. I just hope our Prez is not about to give an order to bomb Iran. It is waaaay too early for that. We are far from out of options.
BTW - I set this up for anyone reading to add a comment or even write a new post. Feel free to jump in everybody.
Love to all, Michael
Sunday, November 11, 2007
Invasion of Iran ???
Here's our recent discussion.
My Question:
What do you think the odds of this admin bombing or invading Iran are?
Are you for it?
What do you think the likely consequences would be?
Just wondering..
Love, Michael
Terry's Response:
Hi Bro;
Prepare yourself for another lengthy answer.
It all depends on how the rest of the world responds to the threat of
aggression from a country that spews hatred for Israel and the USA. If the
Russians (and the Chinese & North Koreans) do not boycott support for the
buildup of weapons by the Iranians, it could be a "no brainer" to have to do
some type of intervention (yes even military action) to curtail the
possibility of Iran having and using (as they have promised) weapons of mass
destruction.
What are the odds? 50/50, maybe greater! From what I hear and know of the
"wacko" president of Iran, he is "hell bent" on the destruction of Israel,
and the take over of the US, and then the world. The "so called" 12th Imam
is to be the savior and the ruler of the world, with the Muslim religion in
full control (and that is a scary thing). If we don't stop him (Iran) where
they are, we will have to fight him here. It is pretty obvious that he
intends to use terrorism and weapons of mass destruction to attack us
whenever he gets the opportunity. It's time that we (the US people) wake up
and "get real" about what is going on in the world with this struggle. It
will not end if we "pull out" - It will only embolden them to continue and
bring the fight over here - it will hasten their plans and ambitions.
Am I for it? Of course not - war is never desirable or wished for, but
sometimes it is required for self preservation. We waited to fight Hitler
for too long, because we didn't want war. War is a horrible thing, but the
alternative is worse, and we will eventually have to fight for our
preservation anyway! Should we wait until there are tens' of thousands of
innocent people that have been killed first? Have we forgotten the attack
on New York already? Haven't we learned anything from history? I'm for
defending the USA and the freedom that we enjoy, and if that means we have
to fight for it, again, then I'm for it!
I see the consequences played out on two fronts. The first one is the world
stage, and the second is the religious or Biblical stage. Eventually, the
two will intersect as foretold and predicted by the prophets of old.
Actually, now that I think about it, the two are taking place concurrently
as we witness current events. Whether we are defeated, or just simply give
up and go along with the rest of the world, Israel will be left to stand
alone, and will only be saved from destruction by a miracle, and the Lord
will deliver them. I do believe that we are living in the "end times" (like
it or not - the Bible has predicted what is going on today and what will
happen) and the story has already been told. So, the consequences of an
attack on Iran might just start WWIII - but from a Biblical viewpoint - that
is the beginning of the end of the world and the start of the new
millennium, and that is a good thing. It's a real "catch 22'...I love life
in the USA and life as a mortal being, but I believe that there is a new and
better world coming, and these things must and will take place to usher it
in. Do I continue to fight it, or let it happen? I think that the reason
that we Christians continue to fight on is due to the fact that we believe
that the longer we can hold back the evil powers, the more time we will have
to share the good news of the Gospel with people before they are lost
forever. Based on current events, I think that the time left is short.
Good questions - I'm glad you asked!
Love Ya - Terry
My Response to Terry:
I wrote this early on but have been letting it percolate (and letting PC read it, too).
And deciding if I want to create any distance between us this may cause (or exacerbate).
But, I am at the point in life that it makes more sense to be honest about what I think and feel (provided it does not unnecessarily hurt someone).
So here's what I think about the possibility of bombing or invading Iran and your response to my question.
First of all, let me address this dangerous idea that world events are playing out according to predictions in the Bible. As you probably know, I do not believe the Bible is the word of God, the final truth, or is anything other than a collection of stories and philosophies, some of which may be good and help you lead a good life. How can a series of books written by men 1000s of years ago, voted on as to which ones are the word of God in 381 AD, and full of inconsistencies and historical, factual and scientific inaccuracies, be considered the infallible word of God? Every reader comes away with their own interpretation – would God be so vague if he wants his followers to obey his word? (Same problems with the Koran, Book of Mormon, and other religious books apparently.) So, I hope politicians are not listening to those pointing to the Bible as to how the world is supposed to be governed and when the end of the world is about to come. It is lunacy to be cavalierly talking about WWIII being a good thing because it starts the path to the end of the world. If civilization is going to be destroyed, it will probably slowly over time by overpopulation and environmental degradation (and war) until the population is reduced to a sustainable level and the world (and mankind) can recover.
Second, I think even Christians would prefer to persuade people with a bit of honey rather than a big stick. Most polls, many diplomats, and many deep thinkers believe that the Iranian people are much more in support of the US people – not necessarily the US government – then our politicians make it sound like they believe. Throughout the Mideast, we could get much further with a bit of positive economic help, a clear indication we’re not only interested in them for their oil, and containment of the bad apples – the Islamic fundamentalists. Clearly, fundamentalists are bad guys and they do exist and they do want to hurt us – and they have some legitimate complaints about their leaders. However, clearly they are a minority, and there are many, many Muslim adherents, who would love to live in peace, do not seek to dominate the world, and do not believe that their book advocates violence or the killing of Christians, any more than you believe your book does of Muslims.
Therefore, a war has to be the last, last, LAST resort – only after diplomacy, containment, kindness, foreign aid, and everything else has clearly failed. The Muslim extremists are not Hitler, do not control armies capable of overrunning a neighboring country (yet). At this time, they do not control nuclear weapons – and that is something we should seek to prevent.
Unfortunately, when looked at from their perspective, it is pretty easy to understand why they think we are the terrorists. We have invaded their countries, killed many of their civilians, tried to control their economies, their elections, propped up their monarchies, many people in the US are beating the drums about wiping out their religion, we appear to be interested in them only for their oil, do not pay attention to their democratically elected leaders, etc. No wonder they can point to us as Satan and as we continue down this path of destruction, it looks more and more like their radicals are correct! We look like the Hitlers!
So, we have to find a way to do this with kindness and peace and attract the bulk of the population who are friendly toward America and probably do want to develop some sort of democracy and better economic conditions. We cannot bomb the hell out of people in order to get a few that are the problems. The civilians aren’t happy about being harassed by the fundamentalists, either. I wouldn’t say don’t go to war no matter what, as we all know that it can be necessary at times, but our cowboy president has been awfully cavalier about risking US lives and destroying property and killing civilians, not to mention spending billions, sometimes wastefully (deficit for our grandchildren!), in the last six years.
Afghanistan probably made sense, and it would have made sense to continue to pursue bin Laden and his ilk more rigorously immediately after dumping the Taliban. The world was on our side! Iraq was contained and economically weak – no need to invade. But, we broke it, now we own it, and we have to fix it. And, thank you GW, we will be paying for it for a loooooong time.
Amedinejad does not have any real power, just a big mouth, so we should ignore him. Iran apparently made a lot of overtures to the US over the last few years to work out some way to cooperate and co-exist and all overtures have been spurned by Bush. That makes no sense.
So this has been a lot broader discussion of religion and politics I usually engage in, but I just couldn’t let this Armageddon type talk pass by unchallenged. Once again, it probably won’t change anything you think, but we probably both live in an echo chamber hearing our own views reinforced so it’s good to get the other side’s opinion once in a while. I do love you and respect your opinions, even if I don't agree w/ all of them.
I am willing to cc this to the rest of the family and broaden the discussion if OK w/ you.
Let me know. I won't fwd it outside of my family w/o your OK.
Much Love, Michael
Terry's new response: (now you are all up to date - from here on it will be new stuff).
My Question:
What do you think the odds of this admin bombing or invading Iran are?
Are you for it?
What do you think the likely consequences would be?
Just wondering..
Love, Michael
Terry's Response:
Hi Bro;
Prepare yourself for another lengthy answer.
It all depends on how the rest of the world responds to the threat of
aggression from a country that spews hatred for Israel and the USA. If the
Russians (and the Chinese & North Koreans) do not boycott support for the
buildup of weapons by the Iranians, it could be a "no brainer" to have to do
some type of intervention (yes even military action) to curtail the
possibility of Iran having and using (as they have promised) weapons of mass
destruction.
What are the odds? 50/50, maybe greater! From what I hear and know of the
"wacko" president of Iran, he is "hell bent" on the destruction of Israel,
and the take over of the US, and then the world. The "so called" 12th Imam
is to be the savior and the ruler of the world, with the Muslim religion in
full control (and that is a scary thing). If we don't stop him (Iran) where
they are, we will have to fight him here. It is pretty obvious that he
intends to use terrorism and weapons of mass destruction to attack us
whenever he gets the opportunity. It's time that we (the US people) wake up
and "get real" about what is going on in the world with this struggle. It
will not end if we "pull out" - It will only embolden them to continue and
bring the fight over here - it will hasten their plans and ambitions.
Am I for it? Of course not - war is never desirable or wished for, but
sometimes it is required for self preservation. We waited to fight Hitler
for too long, because we didn't want war. War is a horrible thing, but the
alternative is worse, and we will eventually have to fight for our
preservation anyway! Should we wait until there are tens' of thousands of
innocent people that have been killed first? Have we forgotten the attack
on New York already? Haven't we learned anything from history? I'm for
defending the USA and the freedom that we enjoy, and if that means we have
to fight for it, again, then I'm for it!
I see the consequences played out on two fronts. The first one is the world
stage, and the second is the religious or Biblical stage. Eventually, the
two will intersect as foretold and predicted by the prophets of old.
Actually, now that I think about it, the two are taking place concurrently
as we witness current events. Whether we are defeated, or just simply give
up and go along with the rest of the world, Israel will be left to stand
alone, and will only be saved from destruction by a miracle, and the Lord
will deliver them. I do believe that we are living in the "end times" (like
it or not - the Bible has predicted what is going on today and what will
happen) and the story has already been told. So, the consequences of an
attack on Iran might just start WWIII - but from a Biblical viewpoint - that
is the beginning of the end of the world and the start of the new
millennium, and that is a good thing. It's a real "catch 22'...I love life
in the USA and life as a mortal being, but I believe that there is a new and
better world coming, and these things must and will take place to usher it
in. Do I continue to fight it, or let it happen? I think that the reason
that we Christians continue to fight on is due to the fact that we believe
that the longer we can hold back the evil powers, the more time we will have
to share the good news of the Gospel with people before they are lost
forever. Based on current events, I think that the time left is short.
Good questions - I'm glad you asked!
Love Ya - Terry
My Response to Terry:
I wrote this early on but have been letting it percolate (and letting PC read it, too).
And deciding if I want to create any distance between us this may cause (or exacerbate).
But, I am at the point in life that it makes more sense to be honest about what I think and feel (provided it does not unnecessarily hurt someone).
So here's what I think about the possibility of bombing or invading Iran and your response to my question.
First of all, let me address this dangerous idea that world events are playing out according to predictions in the Bible. As you probably know, I do not believe the Bible is the word of God, the final truth, or is anything other than a collection of stories and philosophies, some of which may be good and help you lead a good life. How can a series of books written by men 1000s of years ago, voted on as to which ones are the word of God in 381 AD, and full of inconsistencies and historical, factual and scientific inaccuracies, be considered the infallible word of God? Every reader comes away with their own interpretation – would God be so vague if he wants his followers to obey his word? (Same problems with the Koran, Book of Mormon, and other religious books apparently.) So, I hope politicians are not listening to those pointing to the Bible as to how the world is supposed to be governed and when the end of the world is about to come. It is lunacy to be cavalierly talking about WWIII being a good thing because it starts the path to the end of the world. If civilization is going to be destroyed, it will probably slowly over time by overpopulation and environmental degradation (and war) until the population is reduced to a sustainable level and the world (and mankind) can recover.
Second, I think even Christians would prefer to persuade people with a bit of honey rather than a big stick. Most polls, many diplomats, and many deep thinkers believe that the Iranian people are much more in support of the US people – not necessarily the US government – then our politicians make it sound like they believe. Throughout the Mideast, we could get much further with a bit of positive economic help, a clear indication we’re not only interested in them for their oil, and containment of the bad apples – the Islamic fundamentalists. Clearly, fundamentalists are bad guys and they do exist and they do want to hurt us – and they have some legitimate complaints about their leaders. However, clearly they are a minority, and there are many, many Muslim adherents, who would love to live in peace, do not seek to dominate the world, and do not believe that their book advocates violence or the killing of Christians, any more than you believe your book does of Muslims.
Therefore, a war has to be the last, last, LAST resort – only after diplomacy, containment, kindness, foreign aid, and everything else has clearly failed. The Muslim extremists are not Hitler, do not control armies capable of overrunning a neighboring country (yet). At this time, they do not control nuclear weapons – and that is something we should seek to prevent.
Unfortunately, when looked at from their perspective, it is pretty easy to understand why they think we are the terrorists. We have invaded their countries, killed many of their civilians, tried to control their economies, their elections, propped up their monarchies, many people in the US are beating the drums about wiping out their religion, we appear to be interested in them only for their oil, do not pay attention to their democratically elected leaders, etc. No wonder they can point to us as Satan and as we continue down this path of destruction, it looks more and more like their radicals are correct! We look like the Hitlers!
So, we have to find a way to do this with kindness and peace and attract the bulk of the population who are friendly toward America and probably do want to develop some sort of democracy and better economic conditions. We cannot bomb the hell out of people in order to get a few that are the problems. The civilians aren’t happy about being harassed by the fundamentalists, either. I wouldn’t say don’t go to war no matter what, as we all know that it can be necessary at times, but our cowboy president has been awfully cavalier about risking US lives and destroying property and killing civilians, not to mention spending billions, sometimes wastefully (deficit for our grandchildren!), in the last six years.
Afghanistan probably made sense, and it would have made sense to continue to pursue bin Laden and his ilk more rigorously immediately after dumping the Taliban. The world was on our side! Iraq was contained and economically weak – no need to invade. But, we broke it, now we own it, and we have to fix it. And, thank you GW, we will be paying for it for a loooooong time.
Amedinejad does not have any real power, just a big mouth, so we should ignore him. Iran apparently made a lot of overtures to the US over the last few years to work out some way to cooperate and co-exist and all overtures have been spurned by Bush. That makes no sense.
So this has been a lot broader discussion of religion and politics I usually engage in, but I just couldn’t let this Armageddon type talk pass by unchallenged. Once again, it probably won’t change anything you think, but we probably both live in an echo chamber hearing our own views reinforced so it’s good to get the other side’s opinion once in a while. I do love you and respect your opinions, even if I don't agree w/ all of them.
I am willing to cc this to the rest of the family and broaden the discussion if OK w/ you.
Let me know. I won't fwd it outside of my family w/o your OK.
Much Love, Michael
Terry's new response: (now you are all up to date - from here on it will be new stuff).
Hi Bro;
Introduction
Hi family and friends,
Terry and I have been discussing politics and religion, war and the bible, off and on over the last few months and he agreed that this discussion can be open to others. I thought the best way might be to start this private blog (invitation only) so all can read and contribute. Naturally, you are all encouraged to comment and add to the blog, add links to interesting articles, add pictures, etc. We don't plan to cause any fights, flame wars, alienation, or bad feelings among the family, but we do want everyone to be able to speak freely, be persuasive, advocate for your position, and not be deterred from communicating honestly. Also, with love and respect for others. I am sure many have well considered, hardened positions and beliefs that are not likely to change just because of this. However, hopefully some understanding of others' viewpoints will be a good thing.
As Terry says, "Let the games begin!".
Much Love, Michael
Terry and I have been discussing politics and religion, war and the bible, off and on over the last few months and he agreed that this discussion can be open to others. I thought the best way might be to start this private blog (invitation only) so all can read and contribute. Naturally, you are all encouraged to comment and add to the blog, add links to interesting articles, add pictures, etc. We don't plan to cause any fights, flame wars, alienation, or bad feelings among the family, but we do want everyone to be able to speak freely, be persuasive, advocate for your position, and not be deterred from communicating honestly. Also, with love and respect for others. I am sure many have well considered, hardened positions and beliefs that are not likely to change just because of this. However, hopefully some understanding of others' viewpoints will be a good thing.
As Terry says, "Let the games begin!".
Much Love, Michael
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