Christmas Myths

I think we all know that Jesus may not have been born on Dec. 25 and that Christmas trees are based on a pagan practice, but there are a lot of interesting points in this guy's article. Just food for thought, not something I am saying everyone should ascribe to.

Christmas myths?

Check it out.

Going to Heaven

First of all, I would like to thank Dakota Bill for providing a comment (under “Bible Conflicts”) spelling out in much greater detail and with much better references to the bible than I ever could, some reasoning as to why I may not be completely barred from entering heaven. My simplistic reasoning was simply that if there is a heaven, a loving God would not keep people out who were basically good people but who for some reason did not have the level of belief that most of you have. And even with your high level of faith (Ben) you still have doubts about your right to enter. I’m quite sure you’re all OK unless you veer radically to the dark side later in life.

Second, I would like to explain who Dakota Bill is and why I invited him into this discussion. Bill grew up in South Dakota (hence the handle) and he and his wife were my high school Catholic youth group leaders in Sauk in 1964-66 or so. He is a writer and editor (now retired, but that’s why he does it so well) and a proud liberal in political and religious matters. Since we had discussions about topics Terry and I were occasionally discussing, and Bill always has good input, I asked him on board. And I’m glad I did. It is not a matter of numbers, or getting people who agree with me, it is just good for everyone to hear new voices every now and then – we all need to get out of our own echo chambers.

Third, (this is weird), the only person to keep in the dark on this discussion is Mom (& Dad). She doesn’t have a computer, doesn’t email these days, so is not likely to get involved unless someone raises the existence of the blog in discussion. I know she is not happy about all of you who fled the Catholic church and would be further saddened to see how non-religious I am (even tho she knows it she is in a bit of denial about the extent of it). I know it bothers her already, so it is better to not make it worse. She still feels like she has failed her religious obligations by not keeping us all in Mother Church. I trust you will understand.

And finally, I hope you are not thinking I am an obnoxious jerk about all this. I find it an interesting discussion and religion and its power fascinates me. Phyllis thinks I am a little crazy reading or watching TV shows about bible interpretation, archeology in the holy land, or debates between evolutionists and creationists, and lately I am very worried about how religion affects politics. I really would like to NOT be involved in politics, but we all get dragged into it because it affects our schools, our businesses, our dollars, the taxes we pay, whether the potholes get fixed, the snow gets removed, and now because of wars we fund (and send people to risk their lives). Church and state seem to be less and less separated and that worries me. This country was founded in large part to get away from state and religion being too mixed up with each other and now some feel we are headed down a similar path. It bears discussion and observation. So, we’re all involved in politics whether we want to be or not.

Please don’t be shy, and don’t think anyone will be insulted or hurt by your comments. This is a good place to state your opinion or ask questions that you might feel uncomfortable about in another place.

Love to all, Michael.

Easy on the pumpkin pie ....

Happy Thanksgiving to all!

I hope you all eat plenty today, but eat light for the rest of the weekend so you stay healthy and live long. Then contribute the leftovers or some cash to a group that helps feed others.

There is a very comprehensive article in the Economist about religion in the world. It doesn't so much take a position as explain a lot of the tensions between various factions. Worth reading (long, but good - keep following the "next article" link at the bottom of each section).

Here's the link (click it).

More discussion soon.

Love, Michael.

Stem Cell Breakthrough

Hopefully this will help science advance and allay the concerns of those who think human life begins at conception. (Click on link to read article.) Altho there is much more research to be done and techniques to develop, this has the potential to help cure disease, grow new tissues, etc., and save lives. For a while yet, there will probably be research on both paths, embryonic and this new method of creating stem cells, until it is certain that the new method works as well as using embryonic stem cells.

You all know my thoughts already - I had no problem w/ embryonic stem cell research. Does this help those of you who were concerned about it?

Bible Conflicts

I guess we are still on bible inconsistencies. I am definitely no bible scholar and I’m sure there are many of you that have read more of it than me. I just read what others say about it and then go look to see if they are BS-ing. So here are just a few examples of what I read.

Is the bible right in both cases? Can God deceive people?
Proverbs 30:5 (King James Version)
5Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.

Ezekiel 14:9 (King James Version)
9And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.

Is he giving out bad laws meant to deceive?
Ezekiel 20
24Because they had not executed my judgments, but had despised my statutes, and had polluted my sabbaths, and their eyes were after their fathers' idols.

25Wherefore I gave them also statutes that were not good, and judgments whereby they should not live;

Promises not kept?
John: Jesus says that whatever you ask either him or his father for you will receive. (if you don’t get what you asked for it God’s will?) 14:13-14, 15:7, 15:16, 16:23

Multiple marriages (apparently there are quite a few cases)
Genesis 4 19 Lamech married two women, one named Adah and the other Zillah. 20 Adah gave birth to Jabal; he was the father of those who live in tents and raise livestock. 21 His brother's name was Jubal; he was the father of all who play the harp and flute. 22 Zillah also had a son, Tubal-Cain, who forged all kinds of tools out of [g] bronze and iron. Tubal-Cain's sister was Naamah.

the polygamous household of Jacob, Leah and Rachel.

Not to forget - The surrogate motherhood of the handmaid.


Incest not allowed Leviticus 18:6-18, but …
Genesis 20:11-12 (New International Version)
11 Abraham replied, "I said to myself, 'There is surely no fear of God in this place, and they will kill me because of my wife.' 12 Besides, she really is my sister, the daughter of my father though not of my mother; and she became my wife.

"And Cain knew his wife." That's nice, but where did she come from? The Bible doesn't mention any of Cain's sisters. Well, maybe he married his mom. In any case, Cain and the mysterious Mrs. Cain have a son (another blue cigar!). His name is Enoch and he builds a city (population 3?). 4:17

Rape suggested: Genesis, Chapter 19, Verse 8.
8. Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.

More rape: Genesis, Chapter 34, Verses 1-2.
And Dinah the daughter of Leah, which she bare unto Jacob, went out to see the daughters of the land.

2. And when Shechem the son of Hamor the Hivite, prince of the country, saw her, he took her, and lay with her, and defiled her.

New Testament too:
Matthew: There are 29 generations listed from David to Jesus in Matthew's genealogy, while Luke's (3:23-31) has 43. Except for David at one end and Jesus at the other, there are only three names in the two lists that are the same. 1:6-16

"Whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven." According to the gospels (Mt.26:69-75, Mk.14:66-72, Lk.22:55-62, Jn.15:18-27), Peter denied Jesus three times before men. Therefore Jesus must have denied Peter before God. 10:33

Jesus lists the "ten commandments," but his list has only six, and the sixth is not one of the ten. The commandments given by Jesus are secular, not religious, in nature. 19:18

Jesus curses a fig tree and the tree dies immediately (showing the world how much God Hates Figs). But in Mark's gospel (11:14, 20-21) the cursed fig tree doesn't die until the next morning. 21:19-20 And was it fig season?

Science:
Mark: "In those days ... the moon shall not give her light, and the stars of heaven shall fall." Of course this is nonsense. The billions of stars will never fall to earth and the moon does not produce its own light. 13:24-25

Epilepsy is caused by devils. 9:39-42 (not according to modern medicine)

Genesis: God creates light and separates light from darkness, and day from night, on the first day. Yet he didn't make the light producing objects (the sun and the stars) until the fourth day (1:14-19). 1:3-5


Gen: God makes the animals and parades them before Adam to see if any would strike his fancy. But none seem to have what it takes to please him. After making the animals, God has Adam name them all. The naming of several million species must have kept Adam busy for a while. 2:18-20

2 different creation accounts ?
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/accounts.html

All knowing:
Luke: How could an omniscient being "increase in wisdom"? And how could God increase "in favor with God."? 2:52

And why would an all knowing god have all these questions about “where is Adam?” and other times God had to question man for info.


All right, I guess that’s enough. You can read or search the internet and find all kinds of these kinds of citations, some better than others. I’m sure it is all explainable as miracles, bad translations, etc., or further interpretations of the text. Same as you can search and find all kinds of preachers explaining why it is all literally true. Back to “it’s a matter of faith”.

I don’t expect people who follow the bible to throw it aside based on this, but the point is there are problems here when read assuming the plain meaning of the words presented. I realize it has been translated, but no book has been so carefully checked out as the bible and it still has many problems.

The point is, it may be a great teaching book for some, but in light of modern knowledge seems that it can’t be literally true any more than we believe the mythology of old was true. But the Romans did! Children’s books are good teaching tools, too.

Mary: Are you saying God created the world a few thousand years ago pretty much as it is today?
Or are you thinking he created the matter and processes billions of years ago that would lead to today’s world?

Ben, thanks for your comments.
I’ll have to respond another time. Getting too late.

Love to you all, Michael

Iraq war consequences

Is this good timing or what? Here is an article from SFGATE (SF Chronicle) today discussing why a war or any kind of attack would be a bad idea.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2007/11/18/INE6TCD71.DTL

Interestingly enough, this is what Dakota Bill said, too, in his comment to the introduction, which just proves he reads the news.

Also Dakota Bill noted what I was going to note re the biblical inconsistencies - that there are many web sites and scholars discussing tons of contradictions. Here's one:

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/contradictions.html

Some scholarly stuff....

I cannot find the reference to an East Coast professor of religion's book where he notes that serious scholars do not read the bible literally altho he believes it supports his religious positions.

Yes, inconsistencies are probably explained away by those believers who have blind faith, but a plain reading of many of the bible passages seems clear that they all can't be literally true and not in conflict w/ other passages. I think many people "cherry pick" the parts they like and ignore the parts they don't. Some things are not scientifically or physically possible - like covering the earth w/ water to a depth sufficient to cover all land and mountain ranges (there aren't that many water molecules on the planet). Or creating the stars after creating the light. And one has to wonder about all the references seeming to condone slavery, incest, multiple wives, etc., that we consider "immoral" today.

You describe Pasqual's wager late in your last reply. Pasqual was a famous mathematician who stated that there was a rational reason to believe in God. The reason was that he compared the cost of sacrificing Sundays against the possibility of hell and decided that the potential risk outweighed the costs of belief by far too much. Therefore, he stated that belief in God was the safe bet. However, don't you think an all knowing god would recognize a faker? You either have faith or you don't. Plus, I think I am living a life that will get me into the after life, if there is one.

That's it for today. I just hope our Prez is not about to give an order to bomb Iran. It is waaaay too early for that. We are far from out of options.

BTW - I set this up for anyone reading to add a comment or even write a new post. Feel free to jump in everybody.

Love to all, Michael

Invasion of Iran ???

Here's our recent discussion.

My Question:

What do you think the odds of this admin bombing or invading Iran are?
Are you for it?
What do you think the likely consequences would be?

Just wondering..

Love, Michael

Terry's Response:

Hi Bro;

Prepare yourself for another lengthy answer.
It all depends on how the rest of the world responds to the threat of
aggression from a country that spews hatred for Israel and the USA. If the
Russians (and the Chinese & North Koreans) do not boycott support for the
buildup of weapons by the Iranians, it could be a "no brainer" to have to do
some type of intervention (yes even military action) to curtail the
possibility of Iran having and using (as they have promised) weapons of mass
destruction.
What are the odds? 50/50, maybe greater! From what I hear and know of the
"wacko" president of Iran, he is "hell bent" on the destruction of Israel,
and the take over of the US, and then the world. The "so called" 12th Imam
is to be the savior and the ruler of the world, with the Muslim religion in
full control (and that is a scary thing). If we don't stop him (Iran) where
they are, we will have to fight him here. It is pretty obvious that he
intends to use terrorism and weapons of mass destruction to attack us
whenever he gets the opportunity. It's time that we (the US people) wake up
and "get real" about what is going on in the world with this struggle. It
will not end if we "pull out" - It will only embolden them to continue and
bring the fight over here - it will hasten their plans and ambitions.

Am I for it? Of course not - war is never desirable or wished for, but
sometimes it is required for self preservation. We waited to fight Hitler
for too long, because we didn't want war. War is a horrible thing, but the
alternative is worse, and we will eventually have to fight for our
preservation anyway! Should we wait until there are tens' of thousands of
innocent people that have been killed first? Have we forgotten the attack
on New York already? Haven't we learned anything from history? I'm for
defending the USA and the freedom that we enjoy, and if that means we have
to fight for it, again, then I'm for it!

I see the consequences played out on two fronts. The first one is the world
stage, and the second is the religious or Biblical stage. Eventually, the
two will intersect as foretold and predicted by the prophets of old.
Actually, now that I think about it, the two are taking place concurrently
as we witness current events. Whether we are defeated, or just simply give
up and go along with the rest of the world, Israel will be left to stand
alone, and will only be saved from destruction by a miracle, and the Lord
will deliver them. I do believe that we are living in the "end times" (like
it or not - the Bible has predicted what is going on today and what will
happen) and the story has already been told. So, the consequences of an
attack on Iran might just start WWIII - but from a Biblical viewpoint - that
is the beginning of the end of the world and the start of the new
millennium, and that is a good thing. It's a real "catch 22'...I love life
in the USA and life as a mortal being, but I believe that there is a new and
better world coming, and these things must and will take place to usher it
in. Do I continue to fight it, or let it happen? I think that the reason
that we Christians continue to fight on is due to the fact that we believe
that the longer we can hold back the evil powers, the more time we will have
to share the good news of the Gospel with people before they are lost
forever. Based on current events, I think that the time left is short.

Good questions - I'm glad you asked!

Love Ya - Terry

My Response to Terry:

I wrote this early on but have been letting it percolate (and letting PC read it, too).
And deciding if I want to create any distance between us this may cause (or exacerbate).

But, I am at the point in life that it makes more sense to be honest about what I think and feel (provided it does not unnecessarily hurt someone).

So here's what I think about the possibility of bombing or invading Iran and your response to my question.

First of all, let me address this dangerous idea that world events are playing out according to predictions in the Bible. As you probably know, I do not believe the Bible is the word of God, the final truth, or is anything other than a collection of stories and philosophies, some of which may be good and help you lead a good life. How can a series of books written by men 1000s of years ago, voted on as to which ones are the word of God in 381 AD, and full of inconsistencies and historical, factual and scientific inaccuracies, be considered the infallible word of God? Every reader comes away with their own interpretation – would God be so vague if he wants his followers to obey his word? (Same problems with the Koran, Book of Mormon, and other religious books apparently.) So, I hope politicians are not listening to those pointing to the Bible as to how the world is supposed to be governed and when the end of the world is about to come. It is lunacy to be cavalierly talking about WWIII being a good thing because it starts the path to the end of the world. If civilization is going to be destroyed, it will probably slowly over time by overpopulation and environmental degradation (and war) until the population is reduced to a sustainable level and the world (and mankind) can recover.

Second, I think even Christians would prefer to persuade people with a bit of honey rather than a big stick. Most polls, many diplomats, and many deep thinkers believe that the Iranian people are much more in support of the US people – not necessarily the US government – then our politicians make it sound like they believe. Throughout the Mideast, we could get much further with a bit of positive economic help, a clear indication we’re not only interested in them for their oil, and containment of the bad apples – the Islamic fundamentalists. Clearly, fundamentalists are bad guys and they do exist and they do want to hurt us – and they have some legitimate complaints about their leaders. However, clearly they are a minority, and there are many, many Muslim adherents, who would love to live in peace, do not seek to dominate the world, and do not believe that their book advocates violence or the killing of Christians, any more than you believe your book does of Muslims.

Therefore, a war has to be the last, last, LAST resort – only after diplomacy, containment, kindness, foreign aid, and everything else has clearly failed. The Muslim extremists are not Hitler, do not control armies capable of overrunning a neighboring country (yet). At this time, they do not control nuclear weapons – and that is something we should seek to prevent.

Unfortunately, when looked at from their perspective, it is pretty easy to understand why they think we are the terrorists. We have invaded their countries, killed many of their civilians, tried to control their economies, their elections, propped up their monarchies, many people in the US are beating the drums about wiping out their religion, we appear to be interested in them only for their oil, do not pay attention to their democratically elected leaders, etc. No wonder they can point to us as Satan and as we continue down this path of destruction, it looks more and more like their radicals are correct! We look like the Hitlers!

So, we have to find a way to do this with kindness and peace and attract the bulk of the population who are friendly toward America and probably do want to develop some sort of democracy and better economic conditions. We cannot bomb the hell out of people in order to get a few that are the problems. The civilians aren’t happy about being harassed by the fundamentalists, either. I wouldn’t say don’t go to war no matter what, as we all know that it can be necessary at times, but our cowboy president has been awfully cavalier about risking US lives and destroying property and killing civilians, not to mention spending billions, sometimes wastefully (deficit for our grandchildren!), in the last six years.

Afghanistan probably made sense, and it would have made sense to continue to pursue bin Laden and his ilk more rigorously immediately after dumping the Taliban. The world was on our side! Iraq was contained and economically weak – no need to invade. But, we broke it, now we own it, and we have to fix it. And, thank you GW, we will be paying for it for a loooooong time.

Amedinejad does not have any real power, just a big mouth, so we should ignore him. Iran apparently made a lot of overtures to the US over the last few years to work out some way to cooperate and co-exist and all overtures have been spurned by Bush. That makes no sense.

So this has been a lot broader discussion of religion and politics I usually engage in, but I just couldn’t let this Armageddon type talk pass by unchallenged. Once again, it probably won’t change anything you think, but we probably both live in an echo chamber hearing our own views reinforced so it’s good to get the other side’s opinion once in a while. I do love you and respect your opinions, even if I don't agree w/ all of them.

I am willing to cc this to the rest of the family and broaden the discussion if OK w/ you.
Let me know. I won't fwd it outside of my family w/o your OK.

Much Love, Michael

Terry's new response: (now you are all up to date - from here on it will be new stuff).

Hi Bro;

First of all, let me make something very clear. We are both very opinionated, and we hold firm to our beliefs. At times I have felt that you have become weary of my correspondence with you, and I have even “backed off” a bit sometimes because I have no intention of offending you (and if I have – I’m sorry). I enjoy an exchange of ideas, and hope that any dialogue between us would not get so heated that it would affect our relationship. Even though it is fairly obvious that we don’t seem to be together on politics or religion, I can and will accept your opinions as just that – opinions. The last time I checked, our constitution does allow free speech. I may not agree with you, but you do have the right to say it. Trust me, nothing that you say will “create distance” between us. You are my brother, I love you, and the main reason that I reply to some of the issues that we have discussed with so much passion is because I do, and I care. Also, the things that we have been talking about, and the e-mails that we send back & forth, have for the most part been between you and me only. If you would like to include other family members, I have no problem with that.

Now, on to the issues at hand – let the games begin!

The Bible: There have been many a scholar (and other professionals) who have started out on a quest to once and for all prove that the Bible is what you believe it to be, stories, myths, and a collection of man made philosophical hog wash. Many of those people were not only unable to tear it down, but became believers in the process. I am no Bible scholar by any stretch, but I don’t know of any inconsistencies, historical inaccuracies, fictitious claims, or scientific evidence that proves that what the Bible tells us happened didn’t. I would be interested in the evidence that you have or the sources that you know about that would prove the contrary. Would you be able to give me examples of what you are talking about here?

As far as world leaders, any Christian, governments, etc., talking cavalierly about WWIII being a good thing, please go back and read what I said. Maybe I can make myself a little more clear in this letter. War is never a good thing, but it is sometimes necessary. (I’ll get more into that later, I think) Christians understand that their main mission on this earth is to lead others into relationship with God. The one true God, the almighty master of the universe, maker of all things, always was and always will be, the pure and holy and righteous one, cannot stand to be in the presence of sin & evil. When Lucifer (the most beautiful and powerful angel created by God) decided that he was going to be God, he was banished from God’s presence. He (Lucifer – Satan) has been trying to get back at God ever since. He got his chance by introducing sin into this world through Adam & Eve. Obviously, I know that you know the story. The struggle between good and evil has been going on ever since. Christians would never promote war for wars’ sake, or to try to hurry it along to get Christ back here sooner. The church is doing everything that it can to fight back the evil forces in an effort to have the time to get the salvation message out to as many people as they can before Christ decides to return. The conflict here is that we (Christians) know that this day will be a glorious time (we pray come Lord Jesus), and there is going to be a war (good –vs- evil) to usher it in whether we like it or not. When it finally does come, the “war to end all wars” will be a good thing.

Honey –vs- Big Stick: Christians do try to deal with a multitude of issues through diplomacy, encouragement, persuasion, education, and aid. You might say that I am trying to do that right now as I write this letter. As long as someone isn’t knocking on my door with guns and other weapons, swearing to kill me, my family, and take my house away, I’ll keep talking. When they start shooting, you can bet that I will fight back to secure my freedom and my life. Should we be so naïve as to think that after the attack on the world trade towers we could have sat down with the terrorists and had a meaningful discussion about how they felt about us, and “can’t we just all get along”? Do we really think that the attacks would have ended there? Please!

Let us not forget, that during the discussion, they started shooting. The only ones that are accusing us of being the invaders are the terrorist extremists who are getting their butts kicked out of a place that they took over by force in the first place. The vast majority of the real Iraqi people are happy that we are there, and they are going to have a peaceful future when we get done helping them clean the house. (of course you will never hear that in the media – they wanted us to loose this war) Actually reporting the success that is occurring over there would be contrary and detrimental to their agenda. Funny, you don’t hear a lot about the Iraq war on the 6:00 any more – Must be too many good things happening - That doesn’t make “good news” for the networks. I am just amazed at how many Americans are buying into this junk, and want to keep all of the myths and the lies alive.

I don’t understand how you can talk about the US being seen as the bad guys here. Oh – the war is about oil, or world domination, and we want to wipe out their religion, and we kill innocent women and children to accomplish this. Give me a break! Hello! If we were going to take the oil, we would have taken it long ago instead of paying them full price, while we refuse to let our own recourses be tapped to help ease the pain. If we were all about world domination, we could own all of Europe and most of the pacific islands, including Japan. If we wanted to wipe out their religion, I wonder why Muslims are allowed to take time during the day to pray, while Christians are banned from having a Bible on their desk in some places. And the last time I checked, the only ones kidnapping, murdering, and beheading the people of Iraq, were the terrorist insurgents. Again, it is sad but funny – the only ones who keep bringing up this crap are Americans…the Iraqi people know that we don’t work it that way!

On Iran: Yes he does have a big mouth, but he also appears to be putting his money there, and we can’t just ignore him! Apparent overtures? Do we know of any details? Just what were we supposed to give up to obtain peace with this lunatic – Let him wipe out Israel? I would certainly hope that our president would soundly refuse to accept terms like that. I’ve said this before, but I will ask the question again…If we know he has “the bomb”, and we know he has said that he would use it, how long do we wait to see if he is just a big mouth, or another legitimate Hitler? If we wait too long because we would like to give kindness and understanding one last chance, either one of us could be meeting our maker sooner than planned. You are correct, and I agree, that war should be the last, last resort. Tell me, how many lasts are there again? Is it when Los Angeles is gone?

As you have also correctly noted, my ramblings here will not likely convince you that I’m on the right side of this discussion, but I also feel the need to stand firm for my beliefs and convictions. Here’s just one last thought that I just had – I have nothing to lose, and everything to gain. If I am wrong about my belief in the life after death, and you are right that the Bible is a bunch of bunk, I will have lived a good life anyway (trying my best to treat everyone fairly) and will end up in the dirt with you. But, if I am right, I will be in heaven enjoying the glorious love of our Lord. It’s a “win – win” for me.

I do love you – you are often in my prayers!

Terry

Introduction

Hi family and friends,
Terry and I have been discussing politics and religion, war and the bible, off and on over the last few months and he agreed that this discussion can be open to others. I thought the best way might be to start this private blog (invitation only) so all can read and contribute. Naturally, you are all encouraged to comment and add to the blog, add links to interesting articles, add pictures, etc. We don't plan to cause any fights, flame wars, alienation, or bad feelings among the family, but we do want everyone to be able to speak freely, be persuasive, advocate for your position, and not be deterred from communicating honestly. Also, with love and respect for others. I am sure many have well considered, hardened positions and beliefs that are not likely to change just because of this. However, hopefully some understanding of others' viewpoints will be a good thing.

As Terry says, "Let the games begin!".

Much Love, Michael